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Make all grind-based titles account based.

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Old

Dec 24, 2007, 10:52 PM // 22:52

#741

Nuclfus

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2007

Guild: Screw guilds.

Profession: Me/

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

As I said, time doesnt actually refer to time played. It refers to an advantage gained ingame through grind or a time based reward.
Rather than only player skill counting, it now matters how many and what advantages you have ingame.

PvE aspects like plot progress, max armor, new skill trainer access, farming areas, endgame greens, etc. can all be considered as rewards based on time spent on "grinding" through other unrelated parts of the game. And again, a semi-skilled player who invests considerable time into playing would far surpass the skilled person who puts in his 2 minutes and expects to get somewhere good for it. Is that not the same scenario of "time > skill"?

Not good enough? Let me try this then:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

The best way to tell if a game is skill>time or not is to take 2 players.
1 new, 1 old.
Switch their chars, nothing should change. Because there are no ingame advantages.

Case study! Consider Player A with Pain Inverter backed by a rank 8 Asura title and months/years of experience, versus Player B playing the game on a friend's account for the first time with a Pain Inverter rank 2. But to really isolate the "in-game skill" element, let's also make sure Player B even though new to the game is at par with Player A when it comes to interface familiarity, or "knowing what button does what". Now let's make them switch characters and then both fight the Great Destroyer with all other factors held constant.

Now they go in, and while it takes a bit longer Player A still has no trouble taking down the Great Destroyer with a rank 2 Pain Inverter (let's face it: even at rank 1 that thing is so strong it's almost unfair). Player B goes in with a high power rank 8 version, yet he's going to get hammered over and over again with party wipes. Why? Because he's using it on the adjacent Destroyer of Deeds that happens to be lounging nearby, something he wouldn't do if his skill were more comparable to that of Player A.

Now of course, you might respond by saying that this situation is hugely exaggerated and can't be generalized to the time/skill issue in its entirety. So then I'd have to redo it more realistically, and I would obviously do this by somewhat closing the skill gap so as not to be so extreme. But then when I give Player B some more skill (let's say a few days of practice), the picture changes. We're not comparing "time versus skill", we're comparing "some skill + time" against "very little time + a little bit more skill than the other guy".

See the problem? You can't make one guy into a "time" player and his competitor into a "skill" player unless you do essentially what I did in my original scenario. Sure "skill > time" is one of the catchlines of Guild Wars, but I highly doubt they had it in mind that we would try to turn it into a rigorous critical argument.

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Old

Dec 24, 2007, 11:05 PM // 23:05

#742

Isileth

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2006

Profession: R/W

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Raenef

2) If you look at my example, here's how it goes. You spend 10 hours grinding. You have a max title. (This is before this idea would take place.) I spend 10 hours maxing out that same title. I want it for another character. I spend another 10 hours maxing it out. This idea takes place. I just lost 10 hours of work, even though all my characters benefit, you had 10 extra hours to do other stuff. You could spend that 10 hours maxing out another title, while I was left to max out the same title for the benefits of another character.

See right there you picked up on the problem. It shouldnt be work.
You shouldnt have to work to be at the same level of effectiveness as someone else in a game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Raenef

3) When I maxed out my Sunspear title, I didn't have fun. I am almost willing to redo it again on a Paragon as the skills it provides are extremely helpful and max Sunspear would boost it up. If I do, and this idea comes into play, I will be mad. Despite that now my Assassin has Max Sunspear, I just wasted a chunk of my life getting a title I could have waited for since my Warrior already had it.

So you did it, you admit it isnt fun. The reason you are saying no is because you went through it so everyone else should have to?

If you feel that way im sorry, but to me it just seems selfish. "I wasted time so everyone else should have to".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Raenef

4) It is lazy. I didn't like it either, but I went ahead and did it for the benefits of my character and getting the People Know Me title. Not all things are fun or fair in life. Deal with it.

No, it isnt.
I play games for fun and to relax. I do not play them for work.
Currently there is part of the game I (and you) feel it work. I would like that changed so the game is even better than it currently is.
This isnt real life. This is a game. Its a place where things can be changed and improved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Raenef

It wouldn't make it easier in a sense unless they increased the amount each rank of the title requires. If that's the case, my max Sunspear title now requires even more output from me after I was already satisified with a job well done. It's like being demoted in a job. Instead of being paid $20 an hour, you get bumped down to minimum wage. That would just suck.

The titles wouldnt change. Nor would how much it takes to max them.
All that would change is once the player has achieved it. They have it on all their chars. So they can stay at the same level of effectiveness without requiring work and grind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Raenef

The KoaBD title is to show the effort you put into developing that SINGLE character. Not developing your account. When a person has 'My Guild Hall Smells of Rich Mahogany,' I do expect that all his characters have the same title, just that one. Perhaps another that's close, but typically on average these people don't have doubles of that that title. That's an accomplishment. If you make the accomplishment easier, it's not much of an accomplishment if you're walking around with 'I'm Very Important' on a level 1 Ranger you made who's still training to get out of Shing Jea. And the point with the character doing things while you're logged off made no point, whatsoever.

Might I ask how it effects you if I have the title on multiple chars?
The fact is its the player who has played the game.
It is the player who has achieved the titles.
Is is the player who should be able to display those titles.

There is a reason this only applies to grind titles however.
Skill based titles vary for chars, a monk would go about vanquishing very differently to a warrior for example.

Grind titles are the same whatever. Its the same farm over and over. Once you have done it once you shouldnt have to do it all over again just because you would like to play another char.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Raenef

Exactly as I said. They earned it. But it's not really much of an accomplishment if all your characters share the same pride. The character with 50,000,000 experience versus the character with 2,800 experience but they both have the same title. Sure, it's a bragging right, but it wouldn't bring the same amount of 'WOW!'ness factor as it does now. I take screenshots when I see someone with 'God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals' title. If this were to happen, I doubt I'd care since I'd see one every couple minutes.

Maybe thats just you. I really dont care if someone has the title. I dont care if they have a rare skin or 100's of ectos or whatever.

Im not playing to brag or have people brag to me. Im here for fun and enjoyment.
Currently grind titles are not fun for me. I would like to see them made fun, or at least less boring. That would be an improvement.

But at the end of the day who got that title? The player quite obviousely did.
Yet if the player likes to play multiple chars he either cant show it or is hindered from even getting it unless he picks a "title char".

As long as the player has completed the titles, the player should get the reward for that.

Just as an end note here, I said earlier that it seems selfish to me that you say because you "worked" and "wasted" your time everyone else should have to.
I obviousely dont know you and dont want to label you in any negative kind of way. Im just giving my view on what you said.
If you think I have the wrong idea please correct me, I mean no offense in what I say, im just telling you how I see it.

***edit***

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuclfus

PvE aspects like plot progress, max armor, new skill trainer access, farming areas, endgame greens, etc. can all be considered as rewards based on time spent on "grinding" through other unrelated parts of the game. And again, a semi-skilled player who invests considerable time into playing would far surpass the skilled person who puts in his 2 minutes and expects to get somewhere good for it. Is that not the same scenario of "time > skill"?

As I said clearly in that same post.

"In addition to that anything that is gained through the main storyline isnt really counted. This allows reasonable level and weapon progression such as the way GW does it for example. But with no grind everyone has the same eq, stats etc.
Anything that requires extra time spent, especially grind or farming is considered time however."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuclfus

Snip

It doesnt have to change the outcome of an event.
But there is a difference.

A player who did have a skill at Rank X now has it at Rank Y.

Its not a fine balance.
If player A is a lot better he will for the most part always win.

If the 2 players are the same level as skill however time will decide the outcome.

Its like giving someone a 5 second head start in a race. If your a lot faster it wont change the outcome.
But if you both run at the same speed he suddenly has a huge advantage.

Last edited by Isileth; Dec 24, 2007 at 11:13 PM // 23:13..

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Old

Dec 24, 2007, 11:16 PM // 23:16

#743

Nuclfus

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2007

Guild: Screw guilds.

Profession: Me/

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Just as an end note here, I said earlier that it seems selfish to me that you say because you "worked" and "wasted" your time everyone else should have to.
I obviousely dont know you and dont want to label you in any negative kind of way. Im just giving my view on what you said.
If you think I have the wrong idea please correct me, I mean no offense in what I say, im just telling you how I see it.

One could argue it's selfish of you to think you should be on even footing with people who "worked" and "wasted" their time while you yourself did not. I wouldn't go so far as to say that myself, but we're only kidding ourselves if we try and pretend our opinions here aren't in any way whatsoever going to reflect our own personal interests.

Stick Out Tongue

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

As I said clearly in that same post.

"In addition to that anything that is gained through the main storyline isnt really counted. This allows reasonable level and weapon progression such as the way GW does it for example. But with no grind everyone has the same eq, stats etc.
Anything that requires extra time spent, especially grind or farming is considered time however."

Fine, choose your definitions as you please. My point still stands: there exist such aspects in the game that are not accessible through the "main storyline" (the skill trainer in Port Sledge, skill caps in Mineral Springs, access to IDS farming) and by your own definition these would still fall under time-based grinding.

Furthermore, you can earn title points through simple GW:EN plot progression so is that to say that these are not to be considered grinding?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Its like giving someone a 5 second head start in a race. If your a lot faster it wont change the outcome.
But if you both run at the same speed he suddenly has a huge advantage.

Yet again, this is not a case of "time > skill" but "time + skill > just skill". And I've already explained how in a PvE game dynamic where making progress inherently requires time spent that's going to be a given.

Last edited by Nuclfus; Dec 24, 2007 at 11:29 PM // 23:29..

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Dec 25, 2007, 04:49 AM // 04:49	#744
MithranArkanere Underworld Spelunker Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo Guild: Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO] Profession: E/	No, no. Don't get lost. - Accomplishment titles are accumulative: + - Grind tiles are multiplicative: * Making all the missions with all characters if different. they are different. Gettng points it's the same. So the very problem is getting things with all characters. And that's solved by reducing the cost the more characters max a title. Once character? The same. Two? Almost th same, just a bit fater (somwthing like 2%) Ten? half or so. But requiring to ma the tiles with every character.

Dec 25, 2007, 05:31 AM // 05:31	#745
X3R0 Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Jun 2007 Profession: W/	A mod should close this tread because its made of FAILURE, PvE titles are easy to get so why make them like PvP titles(available to all characters). Working for the title keeps the game entertaining.

Old

Dec 25, 2007, 05:59 AM // 05:59

#746

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

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Quote:

Originally Posted by X3R0

A mod should close this tread because its made of FAILURE, PvE titles are easy to get so why make them like PvP titles(available to all characters). Working for the title keeps the game entertaining.

Grind is entertaining?
O_O
PvE titles may be easy to get, but alot of take a HELL of alot of time, and thats why this thread was made
Grind is also in PvP, Fame Farming, Glad point Farming and the list goes on and on
Progression makes the game fun, but when you have completed it on one char it gets old, boring and too repetitive

Last edited by Tyla; Dec 25, 2007 at 06:03 AM // 06:03..

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Dec 25, 2007, 06:32 AM // 06:32	#747
X3R0 Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Jun 2007 Profession: W/	Well you dont have to max out your titles.

Dec 25, 2007, 07:53 AM // 07:53	#748
Drop of Fear Forge Runner Join Date: Nov 2006 Profession: W/	but he obviously wants to max them all in a weekend to feel better. no no no no no no. u can work things different next time, but cannot change things after 1+ years people had played to achieve the titles. can go on as long as u wont, it's something that wont happen.

Old

Dec 25, 2007, 08:34 AM // 08:34

#749

wu is me

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

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(lol this thread is alive again !oO)
Nuclfus seems the only person against the the proposal who's got his head screwed on straight

But still not tightly enuf =P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuclfus

My point still stands: there exist such aspects in the game that are not accessible through the "main storyline"

Firstly, I would like to believe the aim of the proposal was to increase the propensity of gw players to play a variety of character classes, because the game's more fun that way (Viva la Differance!, or whatever they say), not to mention how having another "complete" character is almost identical to a different set of PvE skills, and thus would somewhat influence one's value in a party.

It was decided by the op, and I think many people agree, that the best way to do this was to make grind based titles account based. Why? Grind Based Titles may be retroactively converted from character to account based most painlessly, since every point of progression is essentially an identical unit of player activity, thus, it is possible to amalgamate the points across all characters to an account, whereas it would be impossible with something like the cartographer title, where every contributed point is a unique stage of the character's progression.
Thus, people like Lady Raenef, shouldn't have to worry about having had wasted points on maxing titles on other characters, under this proposal. Whereas a more ambitious proposal to increasing propensity to play multiple characters, might be more painful for such people.

Yea there's still points of inequality in the game, but whats wrong with ironing out the points that are in reach?

oh btw Merry christmas =P

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Dec 25, 2007, 02:28 PM // 14:28

#750

BlackSephir

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

Profession: A/N

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Quote:

Originally Posted by X3R0

A mod should close this tread because its made of FAILURE, PvE titles are easy to get so why make them like PvP titles(available to all characters). Working for the title keeps the game entertaining.

And who said grind-based titles are hard to get? If you'd read the damn topic you'd know. But you don't read, do you? You just post random crap.
This topic isn't made of FAILURE- you are.

Last edited by BlackSephir; Dec 25, 2007 at 02:31 PM // 14:31..

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Dec 25, 2007, 04:35 PM // 16:35	#751
Kabroz the necro Academy Page Join Date: Mar 2007 Profession: N/Mo	/notsigned x100. Level 1 marching with Slayer of All... lol. Close this thread por favor.

Old

Dec 25, 2007, 04:46 PM // 16:46

#752

Limu Tolkki

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2006

Guild: Hate The [Cape]

Profession: E/

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Quote:

Originally Posted by X3R0

Well you dont have to max out your titles.

PvE titles easy to max? I wonder if you have even one maxed title. Oh really, you dont have to max out your title? Thats true, but if you want to, it not good idea that you have max them for all your 10 characters.

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Dec 25, 2007, 05:18 PM // 17:18

#753

Nuclfus

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2007

Guild: Screw guilds.

Profession: Me/

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Quote:

Originally Posted by wu is me

(lol this thread is alive again !oO)
Nuclfus seems the only person against the the proposal who's got his head screwed on straight

But still not tightly enuf =P

Hey now, I likes it a tad loose. Keeps it interesting.

Quote:

Firstly, I would like to believe the aim of the proposal was to increase the propensity of gw players to play a variety of character classes, because the game's more fun that way (Viva la Differance!, or whatever they say), not to mention how having another "complete" character is almost identical to a different set of PvE skills, and thus would somewhat influence one's value in a party.

The original proposal was that instead of separate, relatively smaller grinds towards character-specific title ranks we would implement a larger collective grind to determine title rank universally across all characters on an account. This only makes sense, since account titles are spread on a larger, more "long term" scale designed to reflect progress over multiple characters. The reasoning was that currently if a player was to spend time on grinding a particular character only to suddenly feel like playing a different character then that character would need to be caught up despite the fact that time was already spent on the same grind by the same player.

I was against this notion for the reason that if I spend 6 out of 7 hours of gameplay on my mesmer then it only follows I would want to concentrate my grinding efforts there rather than drag along my dervish and warrior both of which receive sporadic play at most. With the current system I can do that, and if I want to grind across more than one character I simply apportion grind-time appropriately between characters at my own discretion. If I want Norn title maxed on the mesmer, need it around rank 7 on my ranger, and don't even want to bother on the others then I can decide how to spend my time grinding so as to achieve that end. If I want them all to be the same, then I spend equal amounts grinding per character. And while I might be considered a "hardcore" by most people, this helps the casual player too. Someone with only enough time to play one or two characters is not disadvantaged by a collective grind meant to reflect the progress of 5 or 6 different characters.

Quote:

It was decided by the op, and I think many people agree, that the best way to do this was to make grind based titles account based. Why? Grind Based Titles may be retroactively converted from character to account based most painlessly, since every point of progression is essentially an identical unit of player activity, thus, it is possible to amalgamate the points across all characters to an account, whereas it would be impossible with something like the cartographer title, where every contributed point is a unique stage of the character's progression.
Thus, people like Lady Raenef, shouldn't have to worry about having had wasted points on maxing titles on other characters, under this proposal. Whereas a more ambitious proposal to increasing propensity to play multiple characters, might be more painful for such people.

The OP's idea allowed for the title being scaled to appropriately reflect the longer road of a real PvP or account title. Gradually as this thread went on, the attitude was adopted that the account-wide nature of a grind would reflect that it should be a one-time process for the player rather than repeated for every character. The added string of the grind itself being increased to compensate for a maxed account title becoming too easily attained was dropped and forgotten entirely. There are numerous reasons given, such as "grinding is supposed to reward the player not the character" or "the game shouldn't be time > skill" and it is the fallacies here I sought to address.

As for "wasting" time on the wrong character, that's something one should have thought of before investing in the grind in the first place, and it's a mistake one should understand having to live with. I could just as well argue that I wasted so much money on 15k armor for my warrior since I feel like deleting her now. Now if I make a ritualist instead I'll have to start all over if I want that armor, even though I put in all that time already earning it up for the warrior. Can't I have every unit of gold spent via goldsinks on that character refunded to me upon deletion? As with grind, I've already farmed up the cash once and doing it again would be repetitive and monotonous. Each little coin of gold is an identical unit of non-unique currency, so surely the same principles that apply to the title point could be applied to it. And in addition as with the titles, I wouldn't have to be penalized for the mistake of "wasting my time" on the wrong character.

Quote:

Yea there's still points of inequality in the game, but whats wrong with ironing out the points that are in reach?

oh btw Merry christmas =P

This idea doesn't iron out inequality, it only makes it worse. Let's say you have two players under the proposed system who both start on new characters in Nightfall at the same time. According to the sacred "skill > time" principle so many people here are toting, if player A gets ahead of player B then it should roughly reflect player A simply being a more skilled player than B. Sounds like equal treatment to me, right?

But then we find out that player B has his Sunspear title maxed already thanks to previous grinds on another character. Player A meanwhile, is playing Nightfall for the first time. That's not to say he's a newbie in this game, in fact he's a skilled veteran of Prophecies and Factions. But when they both reach the Sunspear Hall, player B suddenly has access to very powerful title skills while player A is left in the dust. Player B goes about rampaging through primary quests with high power title skills. Player A? Left in the dust. Does that sound like "skill > time" to you? Does that sound like "ironing out inequality"? If so, I'm not convinced.

Also, Merry Christmas everyone.

Last edited by Nuclfus; Dec 25, 2007 at 05:57 PM // 17:57..

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Dec 25, 2007, 07:40 PM // 19:40	#754
X3R0 Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Jun 2007 Profession: W/	Wow you guys takes this too seriously, always fun to make you guys burn up like that have fun with your tread. Merry Christmas.

Dec 25, 2007, 08:24 PM // 20:24	#755
Holy Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Closest Dumpster. Guild: Liars, Cheats and Thieves [Liar] Profession: Mo/	i think that grind titles should simply be an account thing. after all....you're playing the game, not the actual character. So what is to stop you from having this available on other Characters of course. Now lets say you have holy Lightbringer on one Char, but the other one you have made, doesnt belong to that Chapter...i think thats where limitations to account based PvE titles should be. If you have the same Chapter-based characters and all 2-3- or however many have max lb/ss would make sense. if your tyrian character is lvl 14 and still in yaks bend, it wouldnt really make ANY sense for that character to have the title available for display. that character you should have to achieve the title again. all imo, but you guys are really going too far with this. Its a game. dont take it so seriously

Old

Dec 25, 2007, 08:49 PM // 20:49

#756

bilateralrope

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

Location: New Zealand

Guild: Xen Of Onslaught (Xen of the Pacific division)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Limu Tolkki

PvE titles easy to max? I wonder if you have even one maxed title. Oh really, you dont have to max out your title? Thats true, but if you want to, it not good idea that you have max them for all your 10 characters.

Could we stop confusing difficulty with time investment please. The time investment comes from having to repeat a task over and over. The difficulty comes from how difficult that task is. And I don't see any of the ways to reach the grind titles as difficult tasks, just time consuming.

The grind titles are easy, but take a long time to max out. For an example, lets take the Sunspear and Lightbringer titles. These can be maxed out with wurm which means that once you have acquired the quests, all you need to do is repeat the same route grabbing the bounties. You don't even need to attack the enemies if your H/Hing, just go to a mob and wait for the H/H to kill it. So the hardest part of the wurm route is getting to the point where you can start doing the runs.

So which of the grinding titles requires the most skill to acquire ?

Now you could argue that the task based titles are difficult, but I'm not going to get into that because I'm not asking them to be changed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuclfus

The original proposal was that instead of separate, relatively smaller grinds towards character-specific title ranks we would implement a larger collective grind to determine title rank universally across all characters on an account.

I proposed increasing the grind to head off the people who would complain about this making the titles require too little work. But I turned against this part for two reasons:

1 - Work has no part in a game we play for enjoyment. Especially since the PvE grind in Guild Wars is a lot less fun than in any other MMO I've seen. At least the MMO's with lots of grind make their grind fun.
2 - There are a lot of people with a single character, and they will be hurt by any increase in the points required.

Now ANET could implement a system where the points scale based on how many characters you have to deal with problem 2. So I don't actually care about changing the points requirement any more.

Quote:

As for "wasting" time on the wrong character, that's something one should have thought of before investing in the grind in the first place, and it's a mistake one should understand having to live with.

What about people who had no way of knowing that they would be wasting time because of changes ANET made after they made their characters ?

For instance the seed of life nerf turned the SS grinding on my monk from being useful to being wasted time overnight. Armor you would of expected beforehand (and apart from the title requirement, you could grind up the gold on any of your characters), and once you have the cheapest max armor (easily obtained by the gold you pick up getting your character to the crafter, unless you take runners) getting more expensive armor doesn't have any gameplay effect at all.

But the title-linked skills weren't added until after I already had 6 characters. So show me how making the characters was a bad decision based upon the information I had when I made them.

Quote:

This isn't something you can blame on the grind system.

So if the only PUGs around will only take players who have built up a grind title to a specific level, who is to blame here ?

The PUGs ?
I can't see blaming them since they are only after an effective team setup. It's not really their fault, since I can't see this being much different to rejecting someone for having a bad skillbar, or not being level 20. The only time I can see blaming the PUG as reasonable is when there aren't enough people above their required rank for them to form a full group.

But lessen the grind required, or the grinds effects, and you have less people forming groups like this.

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Dec 25, 2007, 10:47 PM // 22:47	#757
Tender Wolf Banned Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: All over Tyria, Cantha, & Elona Guild: The Eternal Night Vanguard [TEN] Profession: R/	Wow, so much hate and flaming in this thread... Back on topic: I already /signed this but I do see the other side of the story. Yeah the KOABD title track is supposed to show the efforts you've done for that one particular character, not your account. If this were to happen you'd see rank 6 KOABD's running around all the time. But I still think it should be implemented, it would be much easier and less time-consuming.

Old

Dec 25, 2007, 11:10 PM // 23:10

#758

Nuclfus

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2007

Guild: Screw guilds.

Profession: Me/

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bilateralrope

I proposed increasing the grind to head off the people who would complain about this making the titles require too little work. But I turned against this part for two reasons:

1 - Work has no part in a game we play for enjoyment. Especially since the PvE grind in Guild Wars is a lot less fun than in any other MMO I've seen. At least the MMO's with lots of grind make their grind fun.
2 - There are a lot of people with a single character, and they will be hurt by any increase in the points required.

Who says work has no part in enjoyment? You. Who says it's not fun? You. Who can stop playing whenever they want if they feel the game isn't fun? You. Who's opinion are all these notions based on? That's right: you.

For people like you, there's the option of getting by without grind. Yes it can be done, just as it was before these title skills even existed. Now for people like me, who believe work and enjoyment can coincide or that "work" is only such so long as the player sees it that way, the grind is there to be appreciated as just another obstacle presented by the game to be overcome.

Quote:

What about people who had no way of knowing that they would be wasting time because of changes ANET made after they made their characters ?

For instance the seed of life nerf turned the SS grinding on my monk from being useful to being wasted time overnight. Armor you would of expected beforehand (and apart from the title requirement, you could grind up the gold on any of your characters), and once you have the cheapest max armor (easily obtained by the gold you pick up getting your character to the crafter, unless you take runners) getting more expensive armor doesn't have any gameplay effect at all.

You still have 9 other sunspear skills you can use with secondary professions on your monk, and if you choose not to acknowledge that then ironically enough I do see a waste of grind.

The same could be said of armor if it were the case that skill nerfs rendered all my warrior builds useless. I could either find new builds... or I could ignore that possibility and then expect a refund seeing as I invested in something that I can no longer apply exactly the way I want.

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But the title-linked skills weren't added until after I already had 6 characters. So show me how making the characters was a bad decision based upon the information I had when I made them.

First show me where I said "bad decision" and not "mistake". Until you stop putting words in my mouth I'm not going to waste my time showing you anything.

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So if the only PUGs around will only take players who have built up a grind title to a specific level, who is to blame here ?

The PUGs ?
I can't see blaming them since they are only after an effective team setup. It's not really their fault, since I can't see this being much different to rejecting someone for having a bad skillbar, or not being level 20. The only time I can see blaming the PUG as reasonable is when there aren't enough people above their required rank for them to form a full group.

But lessen the grind required, or the grinds effects, and you have less people forming groups like this.

Yes, the PUGs are to blame. Rationalizing a PUG's motives doesn't change the fact that whether a person is allowed in their party is completely in their control, not the grind's. No level 16's in their party? It's arguable whether that's fair, but either way it's their fault.

Now as to the "fair" question. A farming group in DoA who turns away a level 13 (assuming one could even get there) would be acting on the basis that the area as a whole was and is still meant for level 20 characters. Fair judgment call? Even I would probably say yes. If the same farming group turns away a rank 3 UB, would they be acting on the basis that it was meant to be played at higher ranks? No, in fact they're completely ignoring the fact that the same area predates UB itself. Even after changes since the title skills came to exist it still stands that DoA is in Nightfall, which means there's no guarantee that the player would even have ursan blessing to meet the challenge with. Is it doable without UB? It has to be. Fair to lock out anyone without it? I think not.

What this shows is that things like level progression and decent skillbars are just a fact of playing through PvE, while grinding titles is an issue Anet has very clearly and very deliberately left as something that PvE can be accomplished entirely without. It seems to me that accepting that simple fact is in any player's best interests, since when you realize how little grinding actually gets you in PvE (less effort needed in certain areas at the cost of so many hours of "work") you'll be happier for not thinking you have to spend so much time doing it.

Last edited by Nuclfus; Dec 25, 2007 at 11:45 PM // 23:45..

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Dec 26, 2007, 12:30 AM // 00:30

#759

Sparda

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Join Date: Nov 2006

Location: The Netherlands

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Originally Posted by Nuclfus

Now as to the "fair" question. A farming group in DoA who turns away a level 13 (assuming one could even get there) would be acting on the basis that the area as a whole was and is still meant for level 20 characters. Fair judgment call? Even I would probably say yes. If the same farming group turns away a rank 3 UB, would they be acting on the basis that it was meant to be played at higher ranks? No, in fact they're completely ignoring the fact that the same area predates UB itself. Even after changes since the title skills came to exist it still stands that DoA is in Nightfall, which means there's no guarantee that the player would even have ursan blessing to meet the challenge with. Is it doable without UB? It has to be. Fair to lock out anyone without it? I think not.

What this shows is that things like level progression and decent skillbars are just a fact of playing through PvE, while grinding titles is an issue Anet has very clearly and very deliberately left as something that PvE can be accomplished entirely without. It seems to me that accepting that simple fact is in any player's best interests, since when you realize how little grinding actually gets you in PvE (less effort needed in certain areas at the cost of so many hours of "work") you'll be happier for not thinking you have to spend so much time doing it.

Hmm interesting point about the rank.
But if i get you right and i think i do.
when you get excluded from a pug course your Norn rank is to low.
last time i checked they demand a minimal of rank 8.
Lightbringer back in the days whas rank 6 minimal
This is no more nor the less virtual discrimination.
But i think this is more elitism behavior.
To make a long story short it's a fact if you wanna roll with the DoA teams you have to grind course with LB 6 an Norn 8 you might be taken serious if you are belong scram and don't start about this ain't the truth course it is happening to me all the time i can't pug course i do not have the recommended rank.
So in favor of the alliance titles make it account wide.

Greetzzzz Sparda

Last edited by Sparda; Dec 26, 2007 at 12:34 AM // 00:34..

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Dec 26, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48	#760
MithranArkanere Underworld Spelunker Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo Guild: Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO] Profession: E/	Just remember. This do not meant to get titles at level 1. That can be fixed in many ways: 1.) First of all, at least one character has to max the title. That's Obvious. 2.) Then, that character has to beat the campaign, to unlock hard mode. 3.) For 'core' titles(like wisdom), any campaign would do. They could also need the realms of the gods beaten, or a minimun PvP experience (like getting rank 1 in every PvP title). 4.) Then his grind titles become the 'account based versions'. 5.) Other characters will have their separate title tracks until they qualify to share the account based versions too. 6.) Once a character qualify to share the title with the other characters, his points vanish and uses the account version instead. That way, characters that play with one character will have much higher points in their grind titles (they keep counting after reaching the max) Then, for the second character to qualify, we can put one or more of this prerequisites. 1.) Reach level 20. 1.a) And have 200 attribute points. 1.b) And being ascended. 2.) Beat the the campaign of the title, or the core realsm or some PvP experience (just like before). 3.) Reach at least a certain track of the title. (LB4, Sunspear 8, Norn 6, Wisdom 1, etc) 3.a.) That could depend on how many characters have maxed the title in the account. One character maxes ligtbringer, no effect. 2 max lightbringer, you get the account version when reaching level 7. 4 max lightbringer, reach rank 6, and so on. REMEMBER: - It's NOT "level 1 characters get easily the titles". - It's "being able to play fluently with all 10 characters using PvE skills without being halted to much by grinding".

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